Buying a Roofr: A Homeowner vs. A Roofr

Pete (00:02.228)
Hey everybody, welcome back to the Rufr Report. I am your host Pete McKendrick. And today is kind of a special Rufr Report podcast. We are joined by two of our Rufr employees, Nick and Jennifer. So excited to have you guys here. And we're going to take a little bit of a different twist on the, you know, on the whole podcast today, normally, you know, we're talking to some experts in the industry about, you know, their take on

something very specific, whether that be marketing or sales. But one of the things that we really wanted to talk about today is the homeowner experience. That's become a really big part of what we're doing at Rufr. And we really are focusing on building products that allow the contractor to offer a world-class customer experience. So the customer experience has been top of mind for us recently, and I think that Jennifer recently bought a house, correct?

Jennifer (00:57.956)
I did, I did, and it needed a roof!

Pete (00:59.232)
first time, our first time home buyer who had to do the roof. So we thought that this would be a great way to, uh, to kind of cover her experiences as a homeowner and Nick playing the, uh, the devil's advocate here, the roofer, uh, to give us the roofer's view of that as well. So I'll give you guys a second to introduce yourself really quick and what you do a roofer. And then, uh, you know, and then we'll kind of dive into it a little bit.

Jennifer (01:24.398)
Cool, I can go first Nick, if you're cool with that. So I am the content marketing manager here at Rufr. I started here back in the spring and it actually worked out perfectly with timing because...

Nicholas Capobianco (01:26.332)
Do you want to take it away?

Jennifer (01:38.39)
We got our house in the summer. I think I was two or three months into Roofer. I knew we needed a new roof, and I realized how little I actually knew about buying a roof and roofs in general. So I fortunately was able to lean on Nick and Pete and Richie and some people at the company, but.

It was really interesting to kind of be straddling these two lines of somebody who has no idea about how to buy a roof and needs this, you know, this work done versus someone who also kind of has that kind of touch point into the industry. So yeah, it was it was really interesting. So I think I have some great insights. I'm excited to talk about it today and share.

Nicholas Capobianco (02:17.602)
That's awesome. I'm Nick Kapovianko. I am the sales team lead here at Roofer. I'm a Roofer by trade. So, uh, and a Roofer in the area that Jennifer lives and got her roof done. So, uh, I have some good insight on that. I actually, uh, um, roofed all around where Jennifer is from back when I was used to roof, so I have good insight in the products that she bought, the materials, and we had great chats leading up to her actually getting her roof done.

Pete (02:47.136)
Yeah, so I think it's good. Not only is Nick playing the roofer today, but he actually is a roofer. So let's get into it a little bit. I guess you went to buy a new house, Jennifer, right? And so right away, was it part of the sale? Was it actually negotiated into the sale that you realized you needed a new roof when you guys were making the purchase? Or was it after the fact that you realized, oh, we bought a house that's in desperate need of a roof?

Jennifer (02:52.514)
Thank you.

Jennifer (03:09.966)
Yeah.

Yeah, well, we were very sneaky and we while I was sneaky, I'll give myself all the credit where credits do. And I was like, I'm not gonna buy a house unless I get a

what do you call it, like a test done or where they come in, inspection is the word I'm looking for, which I know a lot of people couldn't get done during COVID. So I was really glad when we actually had an inspection come, inspector come to look at it. Because he didn't know that the roof, you know, would need replacement, all this stuff. I think he said we could probably get another one or two years out of it. But when he went into the attic, we had mold in this, like on the sheeting in the attic.

And it was pretty bad. And so that was kind of the point where we knew that, you know, we should get it done sooner rather than later. It'd have to get done anyways. Didn't love the idea of having a house with a bunch of mold in it, to be honest with you. So kind of right off the bat, we knew that we would need a roof. And what's funny about it is our real estate agent gave us the name of a guy who came in, gave us a quote, and we were ready to sign the dotted line.

and he just would not send me a contract. I think I emailed him like four times. I was the one calling him being like, let me give you business. Like, let me sign this. Like, can you send me a contract? Can you let me know? And he just like, he was like, oh, I'm gonna send it to you tomorrow. And then it was, oh, I'm gonna send it to you next week. And just wouldn't send me this contract. And so I ended up having to go to somebody else. So I felt horrible about this.

Jennifer (04:47.714)
Um, but it's like, he just wouldn't let me give him my money. It was very bizarre.

Nicholas Capobianco (04:52.502)
Welcome to roofing. Uh, there's a, I always say that there's a big difference between roofers and business owners. Uh, you can be both, but you found a roofer, um, not a business owner. And that, like, he, he's probably amazing at what he does. He probably installs a hell of a roof, but there's no systems and processes in place. There's no accountability for that. And ultimately when you're deciding to put something on super expensive on an expensive home that you just buy.

Pete (04:53.899)
Yes.

Nicholas Capobianco (05:21.922)
You do not want to have to worry about if something happens, is this guy going to show up or is he going to be like, Hey, tomorrow, next week, et cetera, et cetera.

Jennifer (05:29.067)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And see, he had like taken over the business from his uncle's business. And so you know, he was kind of new to like running his own business. And so my fiance works in the labor and trade. So he met this guy who's like, I like him, like I want to hire him, like we need to give him our business. So we were fully invested in this. And yeah, it was

It was really interesting because I've heard Pete now since I'd been at Rufor talking so much about the importance of processes and what that looks like. So seeing the kind of impact of not having that on the other side of the coin, I couldn't help but think like, if only he had a process in place, if only he listened to Pete, like maybe this wouldn't have happened to him.

Nicholas Capobianco (06:13.11)
just have process speed in there. By the way, I'm just going to throw it out there just because we're all roof for employees here. I used to say process all the time, but doing all the master classes with Pete, he made fun of me consistently until I say process now like an American. Yeah, now I yeah, that's how us Canadians say but Pete made fun of me relentlessly.

Jennifer (06:15.278)
Thanks for watching!

Pete (06:22.234)
Yeah.

Pete (06:26.03)
Hehehe

Jennifer (06:31.082)
Oh, process? I said process, right?

Pete (06:35.649)
and the process of the community.

Nicholas Capobianco (06:39.598)
for months and months and now even my uncle who lives in America saw me on something and he goes, why are you saying process like in America? And I was just like, oh God, it's... So I just wanted to throw it up. Yeah, you bullied me until I talked like you.

Jennifer (06:40.334)
Thanks for watching!

Jennifer (06:48.398)
Thanks for watching!

Pete (06:50.501)
It's that obvious.

Jennifer (06:58.423)
So, we will process the process.

Pete (06:59.028)
You know, I think this brings up an interesting scenario though, right? That happens quite often in the roofing industry where, you know, a real estate agent goes into a property and, you know, potentially knows or doesn't know whether or not a house needs a roof, you know, and can make a suggestion on bringing in a roofer. You know, I think a lot of roofers are dealing with that scenario. I know.

You know, our instant estimator, I think helps with that because I know a lot of roofers don't like to be called constantly by, you know, by a real estate agent saying like, hey, can you come quote this customer a roof or tell them whether their house needs a new roof, you know, with the idea that they may or may not even win that job. So, you know, the fact that she recommended a roofer to you, I think is interesting. And, you know, I dealt with something similar. I actually had an issue where I broke a pipe.

Uh, the pipe coming into my house, we were actually without water, uh, at the house and got a recommendation for a guy. He came, you know, he's like, oh yeah, I think I can fix this, but I don't own a backhoe, let me find one. And a day goes by two days goes by. I don't hear from him. And you know, I have a family here with no water in this house and, uh, ended up going with someone else and he actually called back about a week later and said, you know, I found a backhoe and I can come do the job. And I said,

Like, sorry, dude, I had an entire house of people here with no water. And it's funny. And again, it gets back to having that process in place and being able to be efficient and do what you need to do. So it's interesting how that, like before you even signed a contract, you already had essentially a breakdown in the customer experience, right? And we experienced that so much. It's part of the reason why the

Jennifer (08:33.332)
Yeah.

Pete (08:54.648)
the contracting industry as a whole, it's not specific to roofing, obviously, right? Like I was dealing with a plumber, but a very similar situation. You know, I think contracting in general, home improvement in general, just has this bad stigma because like Nick said, you know, you have your businessmen who, who run their businesses professionally and you have your fair share of folks that don't and, uh, you know, unfortunately, if you come across the guy that doesn't, you get a bad customer experience right from the very beginning. So, um,

So you were able to find another roofer. How did you go about finding the second roofer?

Jennifer (09:30.002)
Yeah, well, that's where I am so grateful that I was actually at Roofer. Because that was when I went to Nick and I went to Alex and I went to Meredith and I went to some other people in the company that I know are kind of from the area that I'm in. And I was able to say like, here's the one person that I reached out to, who else do you recommend? Because the other thing that I learned that I didn't know about being at Roofer was in Southern because I'm in Southern Ontario, how

roofing in this part of Ontario. Like anybody can buy a truck and be a roofer. And so I was even more paranoid than I probably would have been if I wouldn't have been a roofer about wanting to make sure I was hiring the right person. And then when the initial when the initial guy was here when he actually did like a look over of the roof, he informed that informed me that we only had one vent in our attic.

And it was what he called a whirly bird. I still even don't know if that's like a legit term for the industry, but he was like, that's really bad. Like he only have one vent, it's a whirly bird and they don't work. So in my head, I'm like, I need more vents in my roof and I don't really understand why. So that was another place where I went to Nick and I was like, what does this mean? Like, why do I need this? So it just kind of highlighted all these gaps that I didn't know about my own roof.

Pete (10:44.836)
I'm going to go to bed.

Pete (10:54.24)
Yeah, I think you know, I think that is pretty common, right? I think most of the time your homeowner is Ignorant to the roof. It's like Nick and I talked about quite often on the webinars, you know, it's not a sexy purchase It's more or less a grudge purchase something that you buy because you have to not because you want to and so therefore you don't Really have a good You know knowledge base around it. It's not like picking out kitchen cabinets or something like that, you know, it's

You know, it's something that's probably foreign to most homeowners, you know, unless they've potentially worked in it in the past. You know, I always bring up my poor neighbor, but you know, he was the same thing. You know, he had a guy come quote his roof and essentially signed on the dotted line, knowing nothing came to me afterwards and said, did I get a good deal? What does this mean that he's a gaff something elite master guy? He's like, what does that even refer to? And so, you know, there was obviously some education to be had there that, you know, even the contractor didn't.

as he sold him did not do a very good job of explaining to him what all that stuff meant. So yeah, so it's, you know, I think it's something that is pretty common when it comes to the home owner side of the experience, you know, and speaks volumes to me. Yeah. Well, I mean,

Jennifer (11:58.19)
down.

Jennifer (12:06.171)
Yeah, I think I was spoiled a little bit. I was going to talk to everybody at work and I mean like talking with some of our other customers and they're like, I built these digital proposals and I put all this information in there and I educate the homeowner. Like my expectation of how these roofers would sell me my roof was way up here. And again, like...

If somebody would have come into me with a Rufa report, being like, good, better, best, like here's an outline, I would have been like, yes, sign it right now, would have blown me away. So I feel like that's kind of what I was expecting and it made me realize maybe how different that actually is for any industry. Because even when Nick gave me a few names, I think I reached out to a few, I think.

only one actually even emailed me back like that. That I think was the biggest shock in the whole experience was how hard it actually was to get that call back, or to get that initial outreach back, which when we talk about speed to lead a lot in our in our marketing and in our master classes and in the education that we do have reverse, I was definitely missing that as a homeowner. So it was kind of surprising to kind of know

how important that is and hear that, but then to experience it on the flip side. Someone would have called me back right away. Like I would have given them my business. I needed to do this. I had the money ready to spend. It was really just about whoever treated me in a way that like I could actually sign on that paper and give them the business. So it was, it was definitely a different experience than I thought.

Nicholas Capobianco (13:36.214)
And.

And I think it's important to note too, like where you live is beside a very large city, which is beside a metropolis and your town itself is not a small town. It was like 200,000 people in your town or something like that. Like it's, it's a lot, like it's not like it's a small spot in the middle of nowhere and you're struggling to get it. You're looking at a highly populated area with a high average income as well. So there's a lot of value to be had there. And, and it's a.

Jennifer (13:51.307)
Yeah.

Nicholas Capobianco (14:09.186)
It really shows the, how important it is for all of everybody who's listening and everybody who's watching later. It's like by upgrading the way that you present to the customers to upgrading the way that you have your process laid out, you're going to stand apart from the competition and you're going to win more jobs. So it's really cool to it's cool. Cause I'm, I know the outcome with you, Jen, that you got a nice root from a great rooper.

Jennifer (14:35.086)
Thank you.

Nicholas Capobianco (14:37.351)
But it's cool to see how much can be gained by just kind of bringing in these processes and having really well done quotes that are educational.

Pete (14:49.588)
Yeah, you know, I think one of the biggest things, I think one of the biggest things to note here is the perception of professionalism. Like Jen said, I had the money, I'm ready to go. If someone would have just picked up the phone, they would have won my business, right? Because they would have seemed like the most organized and professional person, right? It would, for real, I mean, it's that simple, right? You'd be amazed at how many roofers and even real estate agents, not just in roofing.

Jennifer (14:49.899)
Yeah, yeah, 100%.

Jennifer (14:57.037)
Uh huh.

Pete (15:17.74)
But how many businesses or service businesses like that win over the customer by just being the person that picks up the phone? You know, like John Bridge.

Nicholas Capobianco (15:18.016)
Oh yeah.

Nicholas Capobianco (15:25.646)
That's my biggest pet peeve is like, link trees when you call someone, any company I was calling, uh, I was calling a plumber. Yeah. I had also like you, uh, a leak in my kitchen sink and I couldn't figure out what to do. And so I was calling a plumber and so many of them had like just a link tree, like dial one four. I was like, just human, please give me someone.

Jennifer (15:48.842)
Just let me talk to somebody please really quick. Yeah

Pete (15:53.792)
Yeah, it's crazy. And I think that it's a huge piece that's missed, right? We still, it's still missed. It's still a huge gap in a lot of roofers' processes is to just pick up the phone, right? And give that perception of, I've got my shit together, right? Like I'm organized, I'm professional. I've got someone picking up the phone. Ben Morrow, Ben Tiger, most of you guys know him as Ben Tiger from Roof Tiger. He said in his speech,

you should figure out a way to have someone answer your phone 24 hours a day. Because that sets the tone. If someone picks up your phone, no matter when that customer calls, like he said, if that customer calls at 10 after five and your hours are from nine to five o'clock and they don't get you at 10 after five, guess what they're doing? They're going to the next roofer. They're not leaving a voicemail and waiting for you to call them back. They're going to the next person.

Right. I think the other.

Jennifer (16:51.576)
Yeah. Yeah, and like, if you don't know roofs, when someone says to you like, yeah, you need to get this replaced, you don't know if you have a week before something happens or a month before something happens. Like you hear roof and as a homeowner, you're like.

Oh my God, like my house is gonna cave in and all my stuff's gonna get ruined and I need to fix this right now. Like there's a very much like a right now urgency with it. So if somebody isn't picking up, yeah, you're not gonna give them three to five business days to get back to you. Like you need to know that they're getting your message and that they're at least gonna follow up with you at some point.

Nicholas Capobianco (17:31.018)
And I always say that too is like, really interesting is like when roofers, when homeowners are looking for a new roof, they're not planning ahead. It's not a, like a, Hey, it's a couple of years down the line. We'll figure this out. It's they're acting in urgency. So to exactly Pete's point, if you match urgency with urgency, you're, you're already miles ahead of everybody else. So that's a, my new favorite thing is the.

Pete's favorite line, speed to lead and matching urgency with urgency just completely dwarfs every other competition from there.

Jennifer (18:06.698)
Yeah, yeah, 100%.

Pete (18:09.504)
You know, one of the things I really like about what you said to Jen is this, you know, obviously being at roofer, right? You have kind of a, I don't want to say an unfair advantage, but definitely a different, maybe a quite slightly different expectation, but it also speaks to the fact that the modern day, the new homeowner, right? The modern day homeowner has a completely different expectation around the service that they're going to receive.

Jennifer (18:21.75)
She's a little bit.

Pete (18:37.112)
the speed at which that service is going to take place. Right, and I think that's some of the biggest changes in the market, you know, like we talked about this on our Rise Road Tour, you know, and I asked some of the contractors, like what are the biggest differences that you see in the modern day homeowner? And they were saying things like texting, they want everything texted, including their proposal to be signed and their invoice to be signed and you know, their invoice to be paid and like all these things, they want a text link so they can pay it through there.

Like they want everything to be as contactless and as simple and frictionless as possible. But I think like it speaks to the fact, like you said, I'm not gonna wait three to five days anymore where I would say 10 years ago, that would have been, Nick could probably answer this better, but I think there was a time when that was kind of like the standard quote, like I'm gonna come do an inspection, get back in my truck, drive back to my office, write up a quote, maybe come back a second time.

to present it to you and it was this long, more, much more like drawn out process and that's not sufficient anymore. You know, the homeowner, the modern homeowner is not gonna put up with that anymore.

Jennifer (19:45.784)
Yeah.

Yeah, well, it's so funny that you say that because I felt like even So the company that ended up booking with was one that nick recommended And it actually kind of went against like any other advice that I got from like my mom About like out of the higher roof because that's who I go to I called my mom my dad and I was like, how do I do this? Um, and they always say like don't go with the cheapest but like you don't need the most expensive like go with the one in the middle And I was like, okay, perfect. That's my parameters and so um

Nicholas Capobianco (20:11.383)
Mm-hmm.

Jennifer (20:17.268)
the company that ended up going with, which was recommended by a few people at Rufr, so I felt really good about my choice, was actually substantially cheaper than the initial guy who had come out. I'm talking like four grand cheaper. And so I was kind of like, I would have given this guy this money anyways if he would have sent me a contract, so it worked out well for us. But I got the quote from them, again, having worked at Rufr,

I was a little bit surprised. Like they didn't come to my roof first. I had no idea how they knew like the size of my roof because they didn't come do an inspection. It didn't come with any kind of visual like satellite drawings or measurements or anything. And so when he came back to actually do an inspection I'd already signed the contract. And I was like, are you gonna tell me that it's suddenly gonna be way more than was on that contract? So I felt like even the way that they did it was so different to what I had expected it to be.

Um, but what was really funny of what you were saying about how things have changed with the modern homeowner Is I had to go and buy checks to pay for my roof because I don't have checks I haven't written checks. I don't think ever in my life and they wanted a check for a payment They wouldn't take e-transfer. They wouldn't take anything else So I had to go to my bank like the week of and hopefully I mean they mailed them got it on time But yeah, I had to go buy checks and I was absolutely gobsmacked

Pete (21:27.236)
Thanks.

Nicholas Capobianco (21:29.677)
I'm sorry.

Jennifer (21:45.046)
by that being their preferred method of payment.

Pete (21:50.032)
Yeah, that's pretty interesting. I think that that's the old school way of doing it, right? That's kind of like the traditional way. I remember having a conversation with a roofer and talking about how he invoiced customers and he said, I don't invoice customers. I just ask them for a check. And so it was pretty interesting that you brought that up because I think that was, for a long time, that was how you got paid.

I mean, I remember talking to a guy, even when I first started at Rufr, now this was only three years ago, you know, and him saying, I spend one day a week, usually Thursdays, driving around collecting checks. And he said, it's not uncommon for me to drive over a hundred miles in a day, chasing checks, right? Like trying to get paid. So you know, because he just didn't have a really good airtight system of getting, you know, of getting payment any other way.

other than physically knocking on the door and asking for a check. So, you know, I think.

Jennifer (22:49.142)
That's crazy. How did you do it, Nick? When you were roofing, were you guys a check company?

Nicholas Capobianco (22:54.638)
We did e-transfer. Um, there was some, yeah, it's, it's there, but the problem is with a lot of e-transfer is that there's limits in Canva, right? So for everyone in the States listening, e-transfer is ACH. So it's a bank transfer. Um, but, uh, there's limits on, and if you're doing it just through your banking apps, it's sometimes $2,000 a day or something like that there. So it did work sometimes, but a lot of times it's cash, it's check. It's sometimes credit card.

Jennifer (22:56.63)
Good to eat transfer, okay.

Nicholas Capobianco (23:24.314)
customers willing to eat the fee kind of deal. But that was a big thing that made it a little bit easier with e-transfer, but the driving is crazy. Like we were talking with one of our clients as well, and it was like he drives 45 minutes each way just to pick up one check and has to schedule time with that client to make sure that they're there. It's crazy.

Jennifer (23:47.038)
Yeah, like when we talk about a roofer like how much time that you spend driving around to you take measurements of roofs like If you're saving time doing satellite measurements, but you're not taking digital payments Then you're kind of losing that exact amount of time driving around picking up checks. So yeah, I was I was surprised by it

Nicholas Capobianco (24:00.671)
example.

Nicholas Capobianco (24:04.366)
How many quotes did you get? Go ahead, B. Nice.

Pete (24:04.436)
Yeah. No, no, I was going to ask the same question.

Jennifer (24:11.551)
There you go. So yeah, so I got from the initial guy who didn't want my money, apparently. And then I got two other quotes, I got three quotes total. They were all like the other two are pretty similar. But when it came to booking dates, I think this the other company that I didn't go with wanted to book it in like October, November.

And that was like, we got our roof done beginning of September. So they wanted us to sit around for two months with it.

And so yeah, I was, and then again, it was like speed. I was like, I don't know how long this roof's gonna last. I don't know how much rain we're gonna get between now and then. I don't know how bad it actually is. And again, like maybe it's me just being paranoid, but I hear mold and I'm looking at my attic and I'm like, I don't wanna really be sleeping in this house with mold in the air. And it was humid as hell in that attic.

Like we, I think they put four or five new vents in it and the difference, I was like, oh, this is why ventilation matters in a roof. Like, I understand this now. I can feel the difference.

Nicholas Capobianco (25:16.326)
Yeah. Especially where we are with the, for anybody in like the Northeast, like it's getting super hot in the summer, super cold in the winter and bad ventilation up here means obviously poor ventilation, which causes condensation, which causes bold, but also horrible energy bills. Cause you're not being efficient with your, uh, your home, but also in the winter and it would mean the same thing in Pete's area too is like, that's bad ice damming.

And that's going to cause an actual leak because you have that heat loss, smelting that first layer of snow and the cold air is making that turn into ice again. So, um, that leads me into a question. I don't know, Pete, if you have one there, but, um, from here, what, uh, how many people provided like a digital proposal for you?

Jennifer (25:56.586)
and they keep cutting everything out.

Jennifer (26:04.942)
Oh, zero. I had zero digital proposals. I think I had one that looked like it was a scan. And I think that they reused the form because you could see where they had taped pieces of paper over top, like the address and the price. And it was kind of crooked when it got emailed to me. And so I was like, this is not even a fresh piece of paper that you're printing off and then scanning to me or filling out. It was...

Nicholas Capobianco (26:20.75)
Hahaha

Jennifer (26:33.97)
It looked like it had seen a little bit of love before. So yeah, I was very surprised. I think it made me realize like just like we live and breathe the world of digital proposals with what we do every day. But like it would have blown me away. It would have absolutely blown me away if I would have gotten a nice, beautiful digital proposal with like a picture of my house on the front and my name. And like I would have just signed just because it looked good.

like talk about modern homeowners, we're impressed by little things like that now. It doesn't take much to blow us away.

Pete (27:07.352)
Yeah, I think it's interesting that you brought up the point of the timing between the sale and the actual installation, right? The actual production. Because I think, you know, this is something that we often talk about and I bring it up a lot is, you know, one thing that I learned really on when it came to process is, you know, the production process is so important, but it's also probably the most overlooked piece, right? Everybody thinks when I'm fine tuning my process, I fine tune sales.

And you know, that way I just pump more sales in, we're going to close more business, we're going to make this a massive company. And then you get this, you know, epic fail, right? At the production end of things. And you end up like the one company that you mentioned, who's selling you a roof potentially in August and can't install it until November, right? Because they have this massive lag or this, this lead time because their process is, uh, you know, is a disaster on the production side. So.

Interesting that you, you know, that was actually a major factor in you deciding to go with the company that you went with was just the timing of production or, and the handoff not being done well by the other guys. That was a turnoff. So, yeah, I find that, I find that really an interesting piece of this whole thing, you know, because I think it is a crucial part of the process that often just doesn't get as much love as it should.

Jennifer (28:30.666)
Yeah, yeah. And even like when with the proposals, like I think they might have offered two different types of shingles as well. I think we went with Owens Corning was what we ended up going with. But again, I only really knew brands because of like having been at Rufor at that point.

I would have not known. You could have told me that, you know, Pete's shingles were the best shingles on the market and I probably would have believed you. So even that, that like, like it was great information to have, but really I was like, what color do I want? Like, I'm gonna get brown shingles. Like, I like this one, this one's pretty. And what other type of it was, like, I didn't really care even. So that was definitely kind of the breakdown. Like, I think they spent a while talking about the types of shingle. And I was like...

I don't really know and I don't really care. Like whatever is going to be best is good. I'll let you choose. So when it came to actually making a choice, like that didn't really affect me.

Pete (29:30.624)
Yeah, interesting. Interesting. Yeah. And I think that, you know, that makes sense. I think you because there it is such a foreign purchase, right? There isn't a lot of, you know, knowledge around that. So even when, you know, depending on how is this how it's explained by the contractor, you know, and how they approach that education piece, if they do at all, you know, can make a big difference, I think. Right. Like, obviously here it was you were kind of turned off by the fact that they were just probably, you know,

Jennifer (29:32.993)
Yeah.

Pete (30:00.616)
reading from the sales brochure of the shingle. Right. And so, you know what I mean? And so, you know, was there really truly any education going on there? Or were they just trying to steer you in a certain direction by telling you, you know, some specific things about the shingles? So, you know, so that speaks a lot to, you know, Nick's key term, education and transparency, right. And really being able to do that in such a way that

Jennifer (30:04.556)
Yeah.

Jennifer (30:14.334)
Yeah.

Pete (30:27.476)
It's understandable. Like you have to remember who the audience is and you have to be able to relate to them and their knowledge of the shingle, right? Like, obviously, like you said, you knew the shingles at least by name because of what we do, right? But your, most of your normal homeowners have no idea the difference between. Most of them would never even know when, oh, it's Corning makes shingles, right? They think of the pink paint they're in insulation, right? So they, they don't even know that is a shingle manufacturer, right? So it's, uh,

You know, obviously there's a lot of education that needs to go on there, but in a very specific way, like I think, uh, you know, sometimes we're.

Jennifer (31:01.842)
Yeah, like there were some things that I think they probably could have explained more that would have been more helpful, like starting shingles that they start the edge with. I didn't even know. I think I sent my quote to another guy that we have at Rufor whose name is Alex. He's great. And he was like, well, what do they use for starting shingles? And I was like, what do you mean? What do they use for starting shingles? And they're like, well, do they order shingles to use as starting shingles or do they use ones that they already have?

I was like, I don't know, does it make a difference? And he was like, well, kind of. So I remember I called and I asked and the girl that picked up the phone was kind of, she seemed like surprised by my question. And she was like, well, you know, we talked about the shingles we're using. And I was like, yeah, but what about the starting shingles? And like, what does that mean? So it was like, that was a piece that probably would have been more helpful and would have made me feel like, oh, like they're teaching me something opposed to like walking through this brochure.

that I could Google Owens Corning and it would come up on their like on Google as like number one result if I really wanted information opposed to something that would actually help me like understand the process. And it was kind of even the same thing like going to like the followup of it. I actually remember taking a picture of my roof and I texted it to Nick because they didn't lay flat. There was like little bubbles.

on the shingles were looked like they were like holes or like gaps and I was like, is my roof installed crooked? Like, is this normal? Because I had no idea. Nobody said anything to me. There was no follow up. And I was freaking out that maybe like half of my shingles weren't installed straight. And so it was like, so there's definitely certain gaps that weren't there in that education piece that would have made me feel a lot more comfortable.

as somebody who bought a roof once probably won't buy a roof for 20 years now in that whole process. Yeah, for sure.

Nicholas Capobianco (32:53.698)
Mm-hmm.

Nicholas Capobianco (32:56.958)
And I think that shows the importance of like itemized quotes as well and the descriptions because it's one thing to show everything and talk about the shingles is Owens Corning. I'm going to give you an Owens Corning warranty. I don't know if that was mentioned at all or something like that. I have their preferred installer or whatever, but regardless, because the modern buyer is on online, especially if it's a younger buyer, like, like

Jennifer (33:12.235)
public.

Nicholas Capobianco (33:22.266)
millennials like us Jen, like it's we're going to be looking at online for NP pizza millennial to I saw Pete's eye like look at me like what are you talking about? He's an elder millennial he's an elder millennial yeah Yeah But it's important to know that stuff because you could look online and be like, you know, what's this?

Pete (33:29.005)
I'm going to go to bed.

Jennifer (33:29.704)
You're in the TV, you're young.

Pete (33:32.848)
It's a little old one here. There you go. I'm very millennial, I like that.

Jennifer (33:38.32)
Honorary, honorary millennial.

Nicholas Capobianco (33:48.046)
preferred warranty, and then what is a starter shingle, what is hip and ridge capping, are they using the starter shingle from there, or are they using something and I don't have my five point warranty on that point? There's so many things there, and then furthermore, I think it's a great idea to talk about what happens after we're done the roof. Sure, we have the cleanup, everyone says supreme cleanup and we're gonna do all this and it's gonna look great, but nobody talks about that if it's done in fall.

like in September, like you had it, that odds are the shingles are not going to be laying perfectly flat because they just came out of the package and they they're stuck to a position. And you need time for that sun and the heat from the inside the attic to kind of let it lay flat. Like, I used to get calls all the time being like, yo, my shingles are wavy. And I'm like, well, yeah, because, yeah, and I would educate them on that stuff. So the education and transparency doesn't just

Jennifer (34:38.88)
Great, that was me!

Nicholas Capobianco (34:45.538)
stop and start during that first presentation, it should be ongoing. And if you have a good presentation style quote, then you can show before beginning after you can talk about those photos beginning and after have a tool like project map it. That is going to show a pro progress when you can show Intel and stuff like that too. So I have one more question on education too, cause I'm very fascinated by this stuff because it's like, you don't get to talk about this as much. We always talk to roofers trying to better their system.

How many of the three-ish quotes you've got talked about that ventilation aspect?

Jennifer (35:21.67)
None, none. Like I think they all were like, oh, we're gonna do more vents. But again, it was like that assumption that I understood, A, what that meant and like why that mattered. And so I know that the house itself had the soffits replaced like five years ago before we bought it. But even that, like that education, this is where like I Googled it and learned that like it comes to the soffits and then it rises and goes up the vents. And that's what kind of keeps that circulation going. Like.

Nicholas Capobianco (35:23.406)
Wow.

Jennifer (35:49.638)
I had no idea. I had no idea. And, and so there was definitely like an assumption. And then it's weird because when you're having those conversations, and like, I don't know if it's also like, you know, like they come in and you know, roofers do this every single day, they know this stuff, they live and they breathe it. So when they're talking about it for me to be like, Oh, excuse me, like,

what is ventilation and like, why does that matter? Like you feel kind of stupid asking questions like that when they're talking about it. Like it's something that's like you should know or it should be something that you like understand right off the top of your head. And when you don't, it can be intimidating in that position as a home buyer to like raise your hand and interrupt them and ask why that matters. Because also like.

you already feel like you're buying something that you don't really understand what it is that you're getting and they're saying all these things to talk about all these materials that you don't really know so to kind of give up that like to become vulnerable a little bit more to be like actually i have no idea what you're talking about or why any of this is important can you explain it to me can be a little bit intimidating for sure

Pete (37:02.272)
Yeah, it's super interesting. I think that, you know, it speaks back to like Eric Richardson was with us on one of the road show stops and he, uh, you know, roofs in California, roofs in San Diego, and he says, I don't sell roofs. I sell experiences, right. And it kind of plays to this, like being able to explain it and have the customer really understand what they're getting into, what the pieces of the roof are. Like, I know he uses our measurement reports to help educate what the pieces of the roof are.

So that the customer understands, you know, like where we're putting starter shingles and why we have underlayment where we have it and why we're putting venting, where we're putting it and how much. And so all of these things that he takes advantage of that, you know, tool to use it as an education piece. And, you know, I think it is interesting that you drew attention to the fact that a lot of times, reefers just operate under the assumption that the customer either knows or, or maybe they just.

are operating on the fact that they know the customer doesn't know, right? And that they feel like they can just kind of take advantage of that fact a bit, uh, to kind of do whatever they want to do up there, because you aren't going to question it because you don't know any better, uh, you know, like the vent thing or, um, you know, like the starter shingle question that you had, um, you know, cause I like that, like you said, they were actually shocked, but you asked about a starter shingle because they have never been asked about that in their entire career.

Jennifer (38:24.22)
Yeah. No, we're not. Yeah.

Pete (38:26.476)
Right. So it's, uh, yeah, it's interesting. You know, it's interesting that the education piece, I think is a bit missed. We missed the mark a bit on it either too over the top or definitely not enough is in most cases, right? So, um, you know, as opposed to, to making it something that's easily understandable.

Jennifer (38:44.618)
Yeah, and what I think that really does is like...

for me, it becomes the difference between me saying, you know, to my friends or my family, whoever, oh yeah, we had a roof done, like, here's a picture, look how great it looks versus like, this roofer came to my house and I learned so much about roofs. And like, you know, he took me up and like pointed out the new ventilation that he put in and like talked to me about underlayment and talked to me about, you know, like step flashing and like where I have that installed and like why he did it this way. And like, like he was great. Like if you ever needed a roofer, like here, like this is his number, make sure you call him.

it like, yeah, if somebody asked me, I would I would probably recommend them because like they did a good job and very happy with my roof. But it becomes that difference between me recommending it versus like raving about it. And I'm not I'm not raving about my experience, really. If I rave about anybody, it's about the expertise that I leaned on.

with my co-workers and how helpful everybody at Roofr was in my experience more than anything. But that's where I think like it really might you might not think it makes a difference, but it absolutely makes a difference.

Nicholas Capobianco (39:52.462)
How many, when you were looking, was everyone you talked to a referral or did you search for a company as well?

Jennifer (40:02.43)
Yeah, so I searched, but again, like, I didn't really message anybody that I found on Google, to be honest with you, which is funny because I work in organic marketing, but I didn't trust Google with it. But again, that was because A, I am like freaked out by the industry in Ontario and like didn't know like anybody could make a website and make it look good, rather or not, they're like actually good at what they do. And B,

actually, I think there is no B. I think that it's really just A, is I really wanted to go with somebody that like somebody told me that they were good and that I could trust and that knew, knew that they did quality work because you really just don't know. And I think that that's the same with like most things that are like service or like labor industries now, especially for homeowners. Like all Google, but like, I'm probably gonna go with the person that like.

you know, like my friend recommends it, like redid their tile or like, you know, a friend of a friend that, you know, knows a guy that can come in and look at it, or, you know, the guys from work that recommend somebody that that's really good at what they do. When it comes to your home specifically, I think it's a little bit different than just like Googling like hair cutters, and I'm assuming that they're gonna do a good job because they have a job as a hairdresser type of deal.

So yeah, I didn't message anybody from the internet, which maybe I'm off from that, but it was straight up referrals, 100% referrals.

Nicholas Capobianco (41:30.35)
that lines directly into what you always say.

Pete (41:33.216)
Yeah, I mean, it really, it is the truth. I still, you know, cause here's the thing about roofing is no matter how digital we become, the sale is still based on the relationship, right? Like people still are buying people. The reason that you'll go back, you would go back and even though you would probably recommend your roofer, the reason that you would have raved about him if he would have educated you more is because you would have trusted him more and he would have built more of a relationship with you by educating you more, right? Like you would have felt

Jennifer (41:45.42)
Yeah.

Pete (42:02.768)
like you guys had a closer connection and that he spent some extra time with you and you were more invested in it and you would have been much more likely to go out and rave about it as opposed to yeah I'd recommend him he did a good job but I didn't really feel like I got the most out of that experience you know that's the difference right and so and it speaks directly to you know creating that customer experience that's world-class that builds that trust in that relationship.

that equates into the referral, which is still by far the number one source of, uh, you know, of revenue generating leads for the roofer. I mean, it's a slam dunk every time, you know, like if I'm coming, you're like, you said.

Nicholas Capobianco (42:42.35)
Mm-hmm.

Jennifer (42:42.415)
Yeah. Yeah, I did look them up. And yeah, I did go and look them up to like check out their website and that but again, it was like I was looking for that quote piece like I was looking for like how I could see you know, their instant estimator of how much my roof was gonna cost or what their availability was for the year. So so there was me going to their website to look for that supplementary info.

But again, none of them really had it. Like I had to send an email and then wait for a response or have a phone call and then wait for them to call me back. And so it was kind of like referral first and then like that like extra little next step came from looking online. But from then I was like, I just need to find a website. I wrote a few reviews, but I mean, at this point, like if Nick's like their quality roofer, I'm like, yep.

Perfect, got it. That's the referral that I need. I'm good to go, I trust it.

Nicholas Capobianco (43:33.302)
And that's the importance of that referral, right? You need to, your customers are best marketing asset, as Pete always says. And like, if they provided you with a, like a, a full proof, like, uh, presentation and education system that Pete and I are talking about, like, how likely are you to be referring them at that point, right? They're just going to grow that process.

Jennifer (43:55.818)
Yeah, 100%. Yeah, and then you go one step furl and you do like a referral program where if somebody, you know, books a roof that I refer and then, you know, maybe I get like a $50 gift card for Starbucks, like heck yes, that's a lot of coffee. I'd be talking up roofers like no tomorrow for something like that. So, you know, I know it's like five, but like, you know. I could have like satisfied all my pumpkin spice latte cravings for the fall. But not really, just.

Nicholas Capobianco (44:12.57)
That's four whole coffees at Starbucks.

Pete (44:15.564)
Yeah, exactly.

Pete (44:24.74)
Yeah.

Nicholas Capobianco (44:25.144)
I'm not gonna do that.

Jennifer (44:26.435)
And we're done.

Pete (44:27.916)
No, that's a great point though that you bring up is how many contractors out there do have some type of structured planned out referral system in place, or are they just relying on someone to throw their name in a comment of a Facebook post, which both work, but could you potentially be maximizing the use of those referrals if you have some type of a more structured program, so.

Definitely something to think about for the folks listening is going into 2024, maybe setting up something and there are products out there on the market that help with that, that allow you to build a more stout referral system to where you can quickly incentivize your past customers to send you a referral. So something to look at.

Jennifer (45:18.286)
Yeah, that's a really good point though there Pete. I think if I could break it down into three things for roofers for 2024 that would have won me over from the get-go would have been like speed to lead for sure. Get me a contract and I will probably sign that contract because other people might not be. The education piece for sure.

and spending that time to like teach me. And three, having some kind of like digital proposal, something that comes to my inbox, something that's a bit more personalized, that isn't a scanned reuse contract sheet that's crooked on the PDF that you send me. Those things would have just.

really solidified for me. Like this roofer knows what they're doing. They take this seriously. They take my house seriously and my roof seriously. And the fact that I need somebody to do this big project for me and for my home. And the trust would have been there almost intrinsically without them needing to really go above and beyond with that. So it seems really simple, like when I say it like that, but it really would have been, like it would have made a huge difference.

Pete (46:32.436)
Yeah, absolutely. I think that, you know, and it's like you said, in a way, it is actually simple in today's market. It is very simple for a contractor to put those things into play. Right. It's a little bit better presentation, educating your sales team a little bit more on how they, you know, present their product. You know, getting a proposal tool, you know, there's some out there jump on a proposal tool. You know, I think it was Latif, right, Nick, that said.

the first thing you should buy is a quality proposal tool, right? And be the guy with the digital, a good digital proposal before you buy anything else, uh, you know, for a brand new roofing company. So, um, you know, so things like that are not really difficult to put into play, uh, and could make a huge difference, especially depending on your market.

Jennifer (47:19.026)
Yeah, yeah, 100% would have made a huge difference. Yeah.

Nicholas Capobianco (47:22.678)
Well, reverse, now you know. You know where I'm like, it's not just Pete and I yelling from our computer screens being like, you need to update your stuff. It's Jen, who is an actual loop buyer telling you what would have made a difference in her life.

Pete (47:25.122)
Now you know.

Pete (47:29.233)
Exactly.

Jennifer (47:33.528)
It's me now.

Jennifer (47:38.534)
Yeah, I'm on board. I'm on board with Pete. I'm on board with Nick. And yeah, and I think just like we look at this every day and we talk about every day, but it was definitely really eye-opening to just realize how many roofers there are that still...

Pete (47:38.741)
Yeah.

Jennifer (47:56.214)
don't really do that and to have that experience from the homeowner side, it was really interesting to be like, I know something that could make this better for you, like, please try it, it would help me, like do it for me, don't do it for you, do it for me.

Pete (48:04.664)
Thank you.

Pete (48:10.784)
It's interesting, you know, I actually approached the roofer who did my neighbor's house and said, Hey, this is what I do for a living. And you know, have you ever considered it? And his immediate response was, Nope, I'm good. All righty, then just keep doing things the way you're doing them. And by the way, he spoke to his he spoke to my neighbor across the street about potentially doing her roof and her siding and then never followed.

never came back to the point that he never even came back and got his yard sign from my neighbor's yard. My neighbor ended up throwing his yard sign in the trash. So yeah, so yeah, so that gives you some indication of his process that he was totally fine working within. So yeah, so yeah, something to keep in mind.

Nicholas Capobianco (48:47.458)
Yo, those are expensive. Yeah.

Jennifer (48:47.549)
He was like, I'm just moving into the neighborhood now. I'm just down the road in front of town.

Jennifer (48:57.394)
Yeah. But I think it's what you said, like, it's not even just about what you're comfortable with anymore. Like, like, I mean, when we look at, like, the list of I think that you had at rise of, like, the modern day homeowner, which is like such a technical way to put it. But like, we're in our 30s. We do a lot of tech stuff. We know we grew up without internet, but are very internet savvy now. And we want

things done in a way that's like quick and easy and accessible. And so if you're not going to do it by yourself, do it for the homeowner that wants to hire you and what their expectations are. So, I mean, as much as you want to run a business way that you want to run a business with, you got to be fitting in with what the expectation is of your customer too. So.

Nicholas Capobianco (49:43.802)
Creech.

Pete (49:46.476)
Yeah. Well, yeah. You're just backing up all the things that Nick and I talk about on all of these.

Jennifer (49:48.482)
I'm sorry.

Jennifer (49:55.378)
And they didn't even tell me to say that, I promise.

Pete (49:58.588)
It's definitely unscripted. Alright, well Jen and Nick, I really appreciate you guys coming on. I think that this has been really eye-opening, right? I think it's been fantastic that you were able to go through that experience and kind of be able to get on here and like you said kind of solidify some of the things that Nick and I often talk about. You know and realize just how much of a gap there is between the homeowner experience and what is still currently going on.

Nicholas Capobianco (49:58.97)
We'll pay you later.

Jennifer (50:00.894)
Yeah.

Pete (50:27.128)
for a lot of roofers and how easily that could be fixed. Like you said, a couple simple changes in his process would have made a huge difference in, you know, your recommendation of him and also in just your customer experience as a whole. So some things to keep in mind there and I appreciate you sharing and thank you guys for coming on.

Jennifer (50:47.094)
Yeah, thank you so much. Thank you, Nick, for all your help in my roof buying experience. And yeah, I hope that it's helpful for even one roofer out there. I'm here to help you win more jobs. That's what I want.

Nicholas Capobianco (50:47.47)
Thanks so much.

Pete (51:03.165)
There you go. All right, guys, we appreciate everybody listening in and we look forward to seeing you the next time on the Rufa Report.

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